More Stuff You Can't Make Up

British Protests, Violence Mark 239 Years Since Expulsion from American Colonies

"As Americans celebrated the 239th anniversary of its independence with barbeques, parties and fireworks, Saturday was a day of rage in the United Kingdom as the British marked what they called the “Proper Mess,” British for ‘catastrophe‘. Peaceful protests against the United States’ independence turned violent, as clashes broke out between NATO troops and protesters demanding a “right of return” to the U.S. mainland.

Riots were held in London, Manchester and other major cities, as British citizens protested their expulsion from what they termed “Occupied Western England.” Many of the protesters consider themselves refugees, as their ancestors were British officials forcibly expelled from the colonies nearly 250 years ago.

“My parents, grandparents, and great-great-great grandparents may have lived in London, but my heart will always be in Philadelphia,” said Rupert Chesselwit, whose ancestors were expelled in 1776. “Baltimore and Charleston are as much a part of England as Birmingham and Leeds.”

Though there were injuries reported in several of the riots, violence did not reach the level of previous years. In 2011, four Britons were killed by the U.S. Coast Guard after storming across the Atlantic Ocean and trying to enter Virginia.

Authorities are warning of potentially more violence next month, when India celebrates its Independence Day."

I'm Starting to Like...

...this guy even more:

Interview with Egyptian President Sisi: 'Extremists Offend the Image of God'

I hope I'm right.

"Sisi: I decided that I was ready to assume this position when I discovered that the chance to save the country was very meager. I was prepared to sacrifice myself for this country and its 90 million people. They want food, fuel and electricity and yearn for a decent life. Any president who does not pay attention to such details or is unable to provide the minimum level of stability should leave office."

[---]

"Sisi: Even if only a million people demonstrate in the streets against a ruler, he should step down. But in our region, that hasn't yet registered in the consciousness of rulers."

[---]

"Sisi: I am not ashamed to admit that there is a civilizational gap between us and you. The police and people in Germany are civilized and have a sense of responsibility. German police are equipped with the latest capabilities and get the best training. And in your country, protesters would not use weapons in the middle of the demonstrations to target police."

[---]

"SPIEGEL: Human rights groups complain that the oppression during your time in office has been worse than it was under Mubarak.

Sisi: One cannot define human rights as narrowly as you do. If the Muslim Brothers manipulate people's awareness or distort their beliefs, then that is also a violation of human rights. If you are unable to receive good or even adequate education and shelter and cannot find a job and have no hope for the future, that is also a violation of your human rights. Human rights should not be reduced to freedom of expression. Even if this were the case, though, people in our country are free to say whatever they like."

[---]

Sisi: "The Muslim Brotherhood had two options for dealing with us, and we had two alternatives for dealing with them. They could either rule us or kill us. And we could either kill them or bring them before the courts. We chose to put them on trial, which was the harder of the two options."

[---]

Sisi: "This religious discourse will take a lot of time. It must emanate from the recognition that we have a problem. We are talking here about the most precious thing for Arab and Muslim countries, because religion is engrained in the hearts and minds of the people.

SPIEGEL: Do you mean a reinterpretation of the Koran or of the Islamic legal and moral code known as Sharia?

Sisi: For 1,400 years, the Koran has represented the absolute truth. But interpretations differ. I propose removing wrong and distorted ideas from the religious discourse. Two days ago, I took part in a conference attended by not only Azhar's highest authorities but also the Coptic Pope, intellectuals and politicians. The subject was "freedom of choice" and the great gift that this freedom represents. The right to choose a particular faith, whether Christian, Jewish or Muslim, is an inherent part of our religion.

SPIEGEL: Does this mean Muslims should take action against those who falsely interpret their religion?

Sisi: Of course, because these extremists not only insult Islam, they also offend the image of God, the all-mighty. Their false beliefs lead many people to ask themselves: What kind of a religion is this Islam?"

[---]

SPIEGEL: "What is the greater threat: the Islamic State or the Muslim Brotherhood?

Sisi: They both share the same ideology. But the Muslim Brotherhood is the origin of all of it. All these other extremists emanated from them."

RTWT It's very interesting. I just hope Sisi is sincere and Egypt can pull it off.

Egypt Under Al-Sisi

"At al-Azhar, President al-Sisi was saying it is not merely an extremist interpretation of Islam that is threatening the world with global jihad, but ideas that are at the core of the mainstream, orthodox understanding of the religion--and that this would require a "religious revolution" to change.

At the Coptic Cathedral, he urged Egyptians not to define themselves by their religion, be it Christian or Muslim, but by the fact that they are Egyptians--a rejection of Islamism, which defines national identity in purely religious terms.

To the world, he was saying that Islam as it is being taught and practiced by its leading religious scholars has given birth to a globally destructive ideology which is now threatening us all.

Moreover, he wants to launch a movement within Islam to save the religion from itself, that is, before it tears itself apart completely and the rest of the world destroys it in self-defense."

[---]

"Al-Sisi is still so popular, the public so widely disgusted with the unending social and political chaos since the 2011 revolution, and so alarmed by the terrorist insurgency waged by the Islamists, that probably a majority of news editors and perhaps also of reporters have decided to support him completely and to oppose his critics automatically. At this point it is hard to find any clear connection with al-Sisi himself to this consensus, enshrined in a declaration by several hundred key media figures a few months ago. However, certainly if he didn't like it he could well speak up against it--yet he hasn't so far."

Good luck with that. I'll believe it when I see it.

"...if al-Sisi truly has established such a doctrine for stability, it would consist of the following:

Anti-Islamism—i.e. a more limited role for Shariah (which is nonetheless still enshrined in the new constitution, yet no longer to be interpreted by the clerics at al-Azhar, but by the government, whose authority and much of its outlook is secular, not religious;
Electoral democracy though with somewhat limited civil liberties, to satisfy both the demand for popular sovereignty and for an end to the endless chaos--strikes and demonstrations (and skyrocketing crime) since the fall of Mubarak in 2011, and to limit the public role of the Islamists, who are at war with Egypt; and
An independent foreign policy—one that still seeks to maintain the traditional alliance with the U.S. and the West, but is not afraid to go elsewhere as needed."

[---]

"Unlike Morsi and the MB, who worked covertly with the terrorists in Sinai, al-Sisi wholeheartedly supports the peace with Israel. He has greatly increased security cooperation with the Jewish state—which had been endangered in the 2011-12 transition and during the Morsi era—to levels exceeding those under Mubarak. Again, even more than Mubarak, who loathed them too, al-Sisi sees the MB, Hamas and their Islamist allies as threats to Egypt as well as Israel. Likewise, he sees Iran—with whom Morsi sought a rapprochement—as Egypt's greatest strategic adversary in the region.

As a result, Egypt is now in an informal alliance with Israel, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain to confront Iran. That alliance is compromised, however, by recent moves from Egypt's Gulf partners to mend fences with Iran as a result of their feeling exposed by Washington's alarming pivot toward Tehran at the expense of its traditional Sunni clients."

A Very Interesting Piece on Egypt and Modernity

Is Islamism in decline?

Poised opposite Cairo university stands a grand statue of a traditional peasant woman (often used to depict Egypt) lifting her veil while standing next to a couchant Sphinx. The statue known as “Egypt’s Renaissance” was created in the 1920ies by the famous Egyptian sculptor Mahmoud Mokhtar and symbolizes hopes of modernity after a long history of colonization.

Today ninety years later again women start to take off their veil. Just like in the early twenties this change is not yet noticeable in the streets of the more popular neighborhoods of Cairo, but in the more affluent parts of the city it already is. In a like manner, a lot of young veiled women are following a new trend: showing some hair. Like their Iranian counterparts, wearing the headscarf this way reflects a protest against the very purpose of the veil: covering a lady’s hair.

This ‘secularizing’ trend seems to contradict with the daily news we get from the Arab world. Today all eyes are focused on the Islamic State. After the horrors of the Taliban in Afghanistan and Al Qaeda worldwide, the world is shocked to see an extreme and barbaric version of Islamist rule through a reign of terror in Syria and Iraq. The Islamic State is becoming an Arab World phenomenon as groups in Algeria, Egypt and Yemen pledged allegiance to the new Caliphate. There seem to be no limits to growing extremism in the Muslim World. Therefore, the question is, are more people becoming extremists or are extremists becoming more extreme? To answer this question we have to refer back to history. With the humiliating defeat of the Arabs in the 1967 War against Israel, most non-Islamist ideologies died. Egypt’s President Gamal Abdel Nasser’s pan-Arabism, socialism and secularism died on the battlefield, as well as the liberalism of his predecessors. The Arab world fell into an identity crisis, opening the way for the only remaining ideology: Islamism or conservative political Islam. Saudi Arabia used this momentum and its newly gained petrodollars after the oil crisis in 1973 to spread Salafism or Islam without modernity. The Muslim Brotherhood too regained ground. It was founded in 1928, four years after Turkey’s Atatürk abolished the Caliphate. Its main goal was (and continues to be) reinstalling this Caliphate. This could only be achieved by getting rid of the Western-backed Arab dictators.

The Arab revolutions of 2011 were a golden opportunity for the Islamists. Knowing that the young revolutionaries were too unorganized and idealistic, Islamists took the power. The entire Arab World looked to Egypt, where for the first time, the Muslim Brotherhood had the leverage to execute their plan and organize an Islamist society. They miserably failed.

Much more important is what is happening to the silent majority in the Arab World. And here the opposite trend slowly starts becoming clear. Fewer taxi drivers place a copy of the Koran visibly in their car. More women are taking off their veil. The young revolutionary generation is also attending prayers at the mosque less often. Most of them only denounce the political Islam preached at many mosques. Others go further and flirt with atheism. The Egyptian government doesn’t like this trend and in Alexandria even a special police taskforce has been created to arrest atheists.

As there are no credible surveys on these trends and the reasons behind it, we can for the time being, fall back on personal stories that might be representative. One such story is about a conservative family in the city of Port Said, Egypt. Two sisters in their thirties, Marwa and Heba, discovered just after the fall of President Mohamed Morsi that the books with which they grew up reading are books printed and distributed by the Muslim Brotherhood. Shocked to learn this, they started to rethink all the ideas that they formed and question the very basis of their religion. “Only after Morsi fell, I discovered that Hassan Al Banna (the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood,) wrote the foreword of the book ‘Living along the Sunni Lines’. I grew up with this book. Now I begin to doubt about everything,” Marwa said. Their veils started to become ‘trendy’, then to disappear last week.

The story of Marwa and Heba is just one of many. It demonstrates what is happening on the ground in the Arab World. The young revolutionary generation feels betrayed by the Islamists and is turning its back on them and often even religion itself. Where power and religion are one and the same, youngsters seem to reject both. This was already the case in Iran and it is happening now in the Arab World. As the current generation consists of fifty percent of the Arab population, this trend is probably the real revolution that is silently transforming the Arab World. (Emphasis mine)

Egypt has long been a leader among Arab nations, but still, I will believe it when I see it.

One More Threatening To Bite The Dust...

UPDATED AND BUMPED:

North Korea Holds “Completely Unprecedented” Talks with South Korea

Could it be 14 years after the unification of Germany, the same thing is going to happen to the two Koreas?

Only China can save communism.
============ORIGINAL STARTS HERE============
North Korea capital 'under lockdown' amid rumours of threat to Kim Jong-un

Only China can save communism.

Egyptian Courts...

...are kicking ass:

Egypt sentences Muslim Brotherhood leader and 182 followers to death

"Lawyers say the ruling can be overturned on appeal. It was not immediately clear how many sentences had been confirmed, with the lawyers giving estimates ranging from 182 to 197. In either case, it would be largest mass death sentence to be confirmed in Egypt in recent memory."

Death Sentence Upheld for Leader of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood

"An Egyptian judge confirmed the death sentences of the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood and nearly 200 supporters on Saturday, in a trial of Islamists who held power in Egypt for a year, but were overthrown last July."

To be honest, I am sort of of two minds about this. The Muslim Brotherhood are a bunch of hoodlums, but the death penalty? Is the new leader, an army general, any different from the countless coups and counter coups and coups to counter the counter coups, that took place during the '50s and '60s during the end of the colonial era? One dictator replacing another, and then another, and another, ad infinitum, which, BTW, also happened in Egypt.

Revolutions tend to be messy and bloody.

Meanwhile, Back in Egypt...

Egypt: Government resigns in live TV announcement

Egypt's Government Resigns


Sisi evokes Soviet ghosts with the US

Back To Egypt

Egypt court bans all Muslim Brotherhood activities

"The Islamist movement's financial assets are also ordered confiscated in one of the current government's most sweeping measures yet against the group."

[---]

"For most of its 85-year history, the Muslim Brotherhood has been an outlawed organization. Now it has come full circle.

The Islamist movement, which soared to undreamed-of political heights when one of its leaders became Egypt's president last year, suffered a decisive blow Monday when an Egyptian court banned all of its activities and ordered the confiscation of its financial assets. It was among the current government's most sweeping measures yet against the group, most of whose leaders have been jailed on serious charges, with thousands of its followers dead or in hiding.

But what remains to be seen is whether this latest move by an increasingly authoritarian interim government will provoke a backlash, enhancing the movement's prestige in the eyes of supporters, and stiffening the resolve of its remaining followers."

[---]

"Monday's court ruling, the text of which was made public by the state news agency, included a broad-ranging indictment of the Brotherhood's "abuse and arrogance" during its months in power, and a ringing endorsement of the coup that brought Morsi down.

Pressure on the group had heightened in the last week after separate court rulings froze several top leaders' assets, and its most visible English-language spokesman was picked up by police. The latest ruling paves the way for authorities to move separately against the movement's many branches, with the likely effect of driving its adherents even deeper underground."

It ain't over yet, by a long shot.

Who's Right?

There are many pessimists out there, but I'm not one of them. I like what Heggy says (jokingly) about the French Revolution. That's my view, exactly. It's gonna be a rough ride but they are headed toward democracy.

And Syria:

From The Land Of The Pharoahs

This explains why I am rather encouraged by what is happening, although, God knows, things could easily become derailed:




Egyptian Democratic Coalition Responds to Obama

"The National Salvation Front, a coalition of pro-democratic and secular parties in Egypt, set out its objections to remarks made by President Barack Obama Thursday on the escalating violence in Egypt.

Led by Ahmed Said of the Free Egyptians Party, the group issued the following letter:"

RTWT

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the neighbourhood, Syria is being accused of using chemical weapons. The headlines are quite wild, though. Some report a few hundred dead and one says over 1300.Baby Assad, of course, is denying it.

Have You Ever Wondered...

...why there are always so many rocks on the streets in Arab countries ready made to hurl at whomever?

He, He, He, He

Still too busy with grand-kids. Be back at it on Tuesday.

Irony At It's Most Delicious

Egypt launches 'Operation Desert Storm' against Muslim Brotherhood, Islamists

I hate being wrong, but I'm gonna stick my neck out and say the era that began in 1952 with the coup that ushered Gamal Abdel Nasser to power in Egypt is almost over. Funny how the Egyptian army was front and centre in both "revolutions". Sixty years is just about the right amount of time needed to recognize that the revolution (Arab Nationalism, in this case) has failed. And boy, did this one fail.

Egypt...

...still at it:

A Prescient Article, Written Exactly Ten Years Ago, Today!

The Crackup of Arab Tyrannies

"Depending on the Soviet bloc for aid, protection, and diplomatic guidance, the Arab regimes closed their societies to influences from the West, thus reversing a trend that had started in the 19th century. Many of the Arab regimes concluded treaties of friendship and cooperation with the USSR and sent tens of thousands of their young men and women to study in the Soviet empire. The result was a deepening of the culture of totalitarianism within the ruling elite. By the mid-1980s, the last representatives of Western-style liberal thought in the Arab world were either dead or dying.

That opened the way for the reemergence of Islamic extremism as the only alternative to military rule. In Egypt, the regime alternated between ruthless repression of the Islamists (under Nasser), unsuccessful co-optation (under Sadat), and a mixture of the two (under President Hosni Mubarak). In Libya, the state has been fighting an Islamist insurgency since 1986. In Syria, the regime managed to break the back of the Islamist movement by organizing the massacre of an estimated 20,000 people in the city of Hama in 1983. In Iraq, the regime used the iron fist against the Islamists, mostly Shiites, throughout the 1980s, then adopted an Islamist posture of its own in 1991 to rally support against the U.S.-led coalition. In 1991, Saddam ordered the slogan Allah Akbar (God is supreme) inscribed on the Iraqi flag. In Algeria, the government's war against the Islamists started in 1986 and intensified after 1992. In the Sudan, the military came to power in alliance with the Islamists but broke with them in 1999 and has cracked down on their leaders and organizations ever since.

By the start of 2003, the Arab Islamist movement was in deep crisis. It was split in Egypt between those who urged accommodation with governments and those who preached endless war. In the Sudan, the Islamists were going through a process of "self-criticism" and trying to recast themselves almost as Western-style democrats, though few people were convinced. In Iraq, the Islamist movement found itself faced with a choice between alliance with the United States to topple Saddam Hussein and alliance with him in the name of patriotic unity. In Algeria, despite persistent terrorist violence, the divided Islamist movement seemed to be petering out. In Libya, the Islamist guerrillas appeared to be reduced to an enclave in the Jabal al-Akhdar region, while in Syria, hopes for reform under President Bashar al-Assad led to a split within the Islamist movement.

The pan-Islamist movement seems to have suffered a strategic setback with the failure of the Islamic revolution in Iran, the tragic experience of Islamism in the Sudan, and the dramatic end of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. The emergence of al Qaeda as the most potent symbol of Islamism also weakened the movement by alienating key elements within the Arab urban middle classes. Al Qaeda's extremism frightened large segments of Arab traditional opinion, forcing them to rally behind the regimes in support of the status quo."

[---]

"Defeated in war, despotism must also be defeated politically. The hardest battles remain to be fought on the field of ideas."

Just one more reason why I think the coup in Egypt might well be Stage II of a long simmering revolution.

These Two Have Been Sitting....

...waiting for a while. Eqypt has already slipped off the radar screen, but I think these are important as background information:

12 Reasons Why Removing Morsi Was Not a Coup

"Breaking his presidential oath, Morsi had seized dictatorial control of all powers of the government. Is this democracy?"

"A loud chorus of media and political voices have been describing June 30th's Egyptian transition of governmental power as a military coup. On the one hand, Egypt's military did midwife a power transition. On the other hand, for at least 12 reasons the transition was an essential and admirable re-direction away from dictatorship, hopefully toward a more democratic future."

"First, in a military coup the first step is usually taken by the military. On June 30 in Egypt the opposite happened. More than 30 million Egyptians took to the streets in cities all across Egypt to demand the removal of then president Morsi.

This surge of voices included Muslims and Christians of all types: common people, business people, the professional class, media folks and even the police. By contrast, only tens of thousands citizens, primarily Muslim Brotherhood members, protested in support of Morsi.

The people of Egypt did vote; they voted by putting their feet on the street. The military's subsequent action in removing Morsi from the government was a response to this dramatic and remarkably unified vote of the people against a tyrannical leader, not a step initiated by the military to rule the country.

Second, if there had been a military coup, a military general would have replaced Morsi. In this instance, by contrast, as soon as the military had removed Morsi from power, military leaders selected a widely respected civilian leader to rule the country until new elections can be organized.

Third, if the balloting by which Morsi took office is the only factor to be considered, then Hosni Mubarak must still be considered the legitimate president of Egypt. Mubarak also came to power via an election. Note also that he too was ultimately removed by the military.

Fourth, the argument that Mubarak's election had been fraudulent would apply equally to Morsi. In June 2012, Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood supporters surrounded the Supreme Court judges who had the authority to declare the winner in the final presidential race. They threatened to kill the judges and turn the country into a sea of blood if the judges should declare any candidate other than Morsi the winner. Can this be described as legitimate balloting?

Fifth, breaking his presidential oath, Morsi had seized dictatorial control of all powers of the government. To insure his power, he imprisoned and the shot with a bullet to the forehead many of the secular leaders who had launched the "Arab Spring" on social media. Is this democracy?

Fifth, breaking his presidential oath, Morsi had seized dictatorial control of all powers of the government. To insure his power, he imprisoned and the shot with a bullet to the forehead many of the secular leaders who had launched the "Arab Spring" on social media. Is this democracy?"

RTWT

Egyptian Revolution Triggers Unexpected Regional Realignment

"Events following the toppling of Egyptian Pres. Morsi seem to be signalling a decisive blow for the Muslim Brotherhood."

[---]

"The revolution (not a coup) that toppled Egyptian President Morsi isn’t just a decisive defeat for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt; it has triggered events that may signal a regional realignment."

[---]

 "The Muslim Brotherhood’s reign has managed to align the fractured non-Islamist opposition. A Zogby poll taken from April 4 to May 12 showed that only 29% of Egyptians had confidence in Morsi."

 [---]

"The Islamist government of Turkey, facing its own internal challenge from non-Islamists, immediately condemned the Egyptian military and took the Muslim Brotherhood’s side. The Islamist government of Tunisia is urging the Muslim Brotherhood to stay in the streets until Morsi is reinstated.

The countries that immediately congratulated the Egyptian people were Jordan, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. The Jordanian government embraced its liberal opponents in order to marginalize the Muslim Brotherhood. Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah fears a "Muslim Brotherhood crescent developing in Egypt and Turkey" and says Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan and Morsi are false democrats.

The United Arab Emirates has called for a Gulf coalition against both the Muslim Brotherhood and Iran. The Saudis, though they are Islamists themselves, distrust the Muslim Brotherhood and have been supporting the Brotherhood's rivals in Syria. These are the countries who took the side of the Egyptian people, not the U.S.

The biggest change in the strategic landscape since Morsi’s ouster is the position of Qatar, a U.S. “ally” that was more allied with the Muslim Brotherhood. Qatari support for the Islamists was so massive that the three above countries (including Saudi Arabia!) complained about it.

The developments in Egypt apparently convinced Qatar that it bet on the wrong horse. The Qatari government, which supported Mubarak’s overthrow, congratulated Morsi's replacement.

The Qataris had been the Brotherhood’s biggest governmental supporter. Shortly after Morsi fell, it was reported that Qatar shut down the Brotherhood activity in its territory, revoked Brotherhood spiritual leader Yousef al-Qaradawi’s citizenship and expelled Hamas leader Khalid Meshaal. It was from Qatar that Qaradawi reached 60 million people each week on Al-Jazeera. If it is true that Qatar has switched sides, the damage to the Brotherhood is incalculable."

Hope so. Baby steps.

More About What's Happening In Egypt

A CBC interview with the Egyptian Sandmonkey, AKA Mahmoud Salem:

A very young Egyptian talking very non-Islamist language: And Western leftards aren't gonna like this one: Cairo airport refuses inbound Syrian flight, Palestinians deported I wonder where they are gonna go now? Poor, poor Pals. This should (I hope) be a big blow to pan-Arabism. The United Arab Republic just got buried a bit deeper. And when the television anchors can't contain their enthusiasm, you know this is seen in Egypt as a the dawning of a new day:
And this might be a bit lame, but YouTube is littered with videos about the events in Egypt. I think that tells us that this is no ordinary coup, or at least that lots of people think this one is different.

Another Very Interesting Facebook Conversation With Egyptians

(Typos and other errors are in the original. Names have been changed to numbers, etc., to protect their privacy.)


American Woman: "Is Islamic jihad breaking out in Egypt?"

Egyptian #1: "trying to...but the army is ready for them"

Egyptian #2: "No , don't worry"

Egyptian #3:"Well they're out. Are they going to be left to wage is the question."

American Woman: "Please keep me posted as our media is reporting armed insurgents attacking government buildings, Port Said (Suez Canal), etc. Massacres are also being reported of the military using live rounds against "peaceful" pro Morsi demonstrators at the presdential place (which I find hard to believe)."

Egyptian #4: "It's early to assume. But, for the first time in history Islamism is subjected to moral, ethical and national judgement."

Egyptian #5: "Not just yet."

Egyptian #2: "All Egyptians are united behind the army."

Dutch guy: "What does 'breaking out' mean in this context?

"Islamism is subjected to moral, ethical and national judgement"

Hurray! Either you deal with radical Islam, or radical Islam will deal with you. Good luck!

"All Egyptians are united behind the army"

Not just Egyptians."

Egyptian #2: "The massacres are done by muslim brotherhood persons , they killed a lot of egyptian as no one now want them here in egypt , no one need Morsi , only the MB."

Egyptian #6: It's not jihad.

Egyptian #7: (Possibly an American kid): Nope.

Egyptian #8: "American woman" your media is not telling the truth ...you can watch it on our satellite channels.

American woman: "Would that I could Egyptian #13! Send me links to whatever may make sense to an English speaking audience or with explanations---appreciated!"

Egyptian-American: "I hope the Egyptian military obliterates the Islamists. Every single one of them."

Egyptian #9: "33 million went out rejecting MB, because we know that we can't do it alone we need and asked the support of our Army, Army asked the Egyptian to show how strongly we need to step down MB and their representative so we went out in that enormous numbers,
all the evidences show that demonstrators of Islamic groups are armed with different primitive and hand made weapons..... they provoke the army in a very critical site and start clashes ( according to several witnesses resides on the nearby Buildings)
my cousin live in a building close to( Rabaa Al Adawia) where they شقث Squatting on Strike since 28th of June she can't go out of her house,or even open the window , her brother is supplying her with food and drinks after passing through agonizing check points,"

This my witness, honestly.

Egyptian #8: "The attack of the Islamic groups to the site is recorded for the world to watch."

Dutch guy: "So...the media lies about you, the international order backs the Islamists, the US has alienated you, the Islamists provoke violence knowing the media will fall for it, you are with your backs to the wall, you must choose between submitting to those who would kill you, or fight for your freedom and be condemned.

So...how does it feel to be an Israeli?"

Egyptian #9: (Egyptian woman): "I am not going to try to defend either side but the truth will prevail soon."

Egyptian #10 (perhaps Coptic Christian, living in Egypt): "So sad that the foreign media is not being fair at all since the out break of the people's reveloution.Yes the so called Islamists are trying very hard to show that they are the victims.But in all honesty they are very violent ,bloody and brain washed killing even their own people to show that they have many casualties.We wish and begging our army to be more firm with them to save Egypt from a possible civil war which their motive.On the other hand we are certain that our beloved army will not allow this chaos for long .Anyway everything is documented and recorded that these terrorists are the cause of all this unrest and violence.We Egyptains are asking The American Adminitration to stop supporting all the Islamic parties coz in the end don't forget their acts against peaceful American or Eouropean citizens.."

Canadian Academic @ U of T: "America under Obama will continue to support to Islamists because it is the most effective way to damage American interests. The world is upside down. If a secular Egypt would be more damaging to the US than an Islamist Egypt, support would go to the seculars.

Obama thinks that if you give bad guys what they want, they will leave him alone. In that philosophy good people simply play no role."

Canadian academic, @ U of T: "@Daniel The Americans are not supporting the MB or any islamists in Egypt. They reluctantly accepted Morsi because he was elected and had to express concern about the overthrow of a democratically elected president. The Camp David Accords require the US to stop funding the Egyptian military if it id deemed guilty of carrying out a coup so President Obama has to appear to be scrutinizing the events but we all know that he is not going to find the Egyptian military guilty of anything. The Egyptian military will continue to be funded by the US and it will continue to be a force that will mitigate Islamist governments should another one be elected. Morsi had to include the military in his government but the military bailed out creating the opportunity for them to "support" the popular Egyptian revolution. The US props up the government of the Saudi Royal family because if it were to fall it would be replaced by radical Salafis many of whom would be Jihadists. There is no way that the international community is backing the Islamists. Furthermore US support for Israel has been unwavering even under the Obama administration despite the fact that Israel's treatment of the PLs on the west bank is immoral."

American academic, U of Pennsylvania: "There has been a scattered, low-level jihad in Egypt for quite some time, waxing and waning since at least the founding of the MB in Ismailiya in 1928. The closest to a major jihad was the terror war by al-Gama`a al-Islamiya that killed a thousand people, mostly Egyptians, in the 1990s. But now a big one is starting, that will be worse if it is postponed, and that I hope will result in the final and total defeat of the Islamists in Egypt. But I'm afraid that not enough people see it in those terms. Appeasement and political inclusion of the Islamists will not work--they must not be trusted in public life again."

Egyptian #12: (woman): "I fully agree with you Raymond Stock, but it does mean then that it will not be possible for Egypt to become a democracy!! They will never fully 'disappear'."

Canadian academic, @ U of T: "There is going to be unrest in Egypt for some time because the nation's farm land cannot support the national population. The population is growing while erosion and other problems are reducing the volume of land that can be farmed. Global warming will also contribute to ecological problems and a loss of national productivity. The country is going to get even poorer than it already is. Yes the Islamists should be shut out because they are bad for the economy and just about every other temporal situation. However I suspect that they will continue to be a populist movement as life in Egypt gets harder"

Egyptian #13: (Not clear whether this man is Egyptian or American. His Facebook profile indicates he is a Jesuit working in Cairo and a graduate of Iowa State University) "The MBs are very hurt and they want by all means to drag the military into violence to cry to the world that they are being attacked by the military... It will not work. The people discovered what the MBs are capable of. We saw them throw kids off the roofs in Alexandria and we saw them throw grenades and club people to death. We heard all their hate speeches and the more they do the more the Egyptians want them out of political life forever."

American academic, U of Pennsylvania: "Thank you, (Egyptian #12), and no, the Islamsits will not disappear. Yet they can be thoroughly defeated--but only if people agree that this must be done. Those who argue that keeping them out of politics radicalizes them further forget or do not grasp that they are already radicalized, and were only waiting until they had consolidated their power before fully implementing their program. There is no meaningful chance they will ever change their ideology, nor will they be satisfied with anything less than total power in the long run. They can never be true democrats, any more than their patrons in the 1940s, the Nazis."

Egyptian #13: "I think Egypt will go through tough times but the economy will boom. Egyptians abroad will invest heavily, the Gulf countries have already started to invest and have pledged to invest more as soon as there is a government. Farmland is plenty, we just have to reform irrigation and find ways of getting more water and there are plenty of studied projects for this that only need investments. The problem will remain that these Islamists will go on doing what they excel at: terrorism but with time they will be purged and refused by the people themselves. Tourism will boom again by next September, so the climate is good but we need to get by these few days and get on a serious path. We just hope that the US administration will not spoil it for us by continuing to be the blood line of the MBs."

Egyptian #13: "The Egyptian people do not want the MBs to participate in any political life, they do not want to hear about reconciliation and no one should encourage this. When Germany was defeated and the Nazis got prosecuted and judged, no one even dared suggesting a reconciliation and a return of the Nazi party to the German political scene. It is exactly the same. The MBs are a fascist religious regime based on excluding anyone who is not MB and by claiming supremacy."

Egyptian American: "I'll take it one step further. Let the civil war between the Islamists and the military begin -without a word from Obama! I'd rather the military slaughter the Islamists then watch the Islamists slaughter 32 million Revolutionaries. The time for compromise is over, the Freedom and Justice Party got their chance and predictably failed, now they need to got the way of the National Socialist Party. And a side note, don't listen to any faux 'liberal' living in Egypt who voted Morsi over the boogeyman Shafiq. If you voted Ikhwan over felool 2 years ago you have no credibility moving forward."

Egyptian # 13: "This is a golden opportunity for the US famous war on terrorism for which it spent trillions of US tax payer's money while Egyptians with a week sit in by the millions got rid of the most dangerous international terrorist organization in the world. If you track down all the Islamic NGO s in the USA, you will trace them back to the MBs and they finance the MBs. Al kaida is also related and it is no coincidence that lots of the MB demonstrators wear the picture of Osama Bin Ladin while they demonstrate and carry the flag of Al Kaida. The US has a golden opportunity here to help Egypt finish this one up but instead they are being a thorn in the back. Sometimes I wish that the US administration should outsource foreign policy help because so far they have been really off!

Egyptian #12: "I think (Egyptian-American) that the Egyptians weren't fully aware of the MB's goal, now they are!!! Well, I am ashamed to notice they still may not know the Salafi mentality?? Taking Nour Party in?? I'm happy they themselves stepped out!"

Egyptian-American: "Egypt desperately needs a Kemal Ataturk. Since this is not happening I'll settle for an Abdel Nasser. Anyone or anything that will put the menace that is 'Political Islam' where it belongs will suffice. The sooner the conflict starts the sooner the conflict will end and it's inevitable."

Egyptian #12: "No problem, as long as there's a decent constitution that keeps the president in line and the people educated!"

Egyptian-American: "The Turkish model under Ataturk (Not Erdogan). Erdogan/Nasser were Islamist crushers."

Canadian Academic @ U of T: "Obama is still constrained by US law that prevents aid being sent to a country that has overthrown a democratically elected government. He is going to face opposition from the Republican controlled House of Representatives. House Republicans oppose him on everything. John McCain has already called for the US to stop sending aid to Egypt ($1.6 billion per year). So far the Obama administration has fended off demands that aid be cut off. Let's be clear. The US funds the Egyptian military. Almost all that aid goes to the Egyptian military. Obama is taking sides by continuing that aid and to the Egyptian military. And yes I agree that the US has one of the poorest track records regarding foreign policy of any country I know. They do not understand the outside world."

Egyptian #12: "Let's be clear, nothing is for nothing!"

Egyptian-American: "For Americans who have a vested interest in Egypt's welfare, this isn't a partisan issue or at least, it shouldn't be. There's no doubt that Obama backed the wrong horse from the very beginning. Morsi was his guy as evidenced by Patterson's comment the day prior to the Revolution. I also think Sen. McIkhwan, while I respect his stay at the luxurious Hanoi Hilton, is out of his mind on cutting aid to Egypt. Obama didn't suspend aid when an Islamist won the presidency, didn't suspend aid when violence, Hate Crimes and Blasphemy charges skyrocketed, nor suspended aid when Morsi appointed a Terrorist as Governor of Luxor. And now both parties are threatening to suspend military aid after 32 million Revolutionaries told the Islamists to go to hell? This is why people hate America."

Egyptian #12: "It's just a bureaucratic rule: if coup, then no aid! If they see it your way Peter Ashamalla, they should also stop being friends with Saudi Arabia! Self interest has always priority! For sure, in the end they will pay!!"

Canadian Academic @ U of T: "@Peter Every political issue in the US is now partisan and the government is deadlocked. The US is very polarized. The Republicans are determined to foil any policy originating from the White House. And I must repeat that the US president is obliged to support a democratically elected government that the US is not at war with. Make no mistake, the Egyptian military did not act without consulting the US government. The US would have said that it was glad to get rid of Morsi but we (the US) cannot be seen to be involved. It would also have said that the Egyptian military had to act in such a way as to give Obama a way of claiming that it was NOT a coup. This included making a well regarded civilian the head of state, demonstrating support of all opposition groups and the statement that new elections will be held very soon. Even with all that political "cover" the Egyptian military could not "act" until 48 hours after millions of protestors thronged the streets so it could claim that it had urged Morsi to deal with the unrest prior to ousting him. The military can claim that it merely carried out the will of the people at a time of extreme crisis that the government was unable or unwilling to deal with. All this was critical to keeping the aid flowing. The Egyptian military did its very best to "comply" with US law which meant the US government was directly involved in choreographing the Egyptian military's coup."

Israeli man: "Those who cry foul with regards to the supposedly undemocratic way in which this dictator was ousted managed to ignore the fact that many of the world’s worst dictators were propelled into power through democratic elections and even more have done so off the back of popular movements."

Egyptian #14 (Young American muslim?): "The struggles of all Egyptians--not only of Muslims--is a well known fact."

No Idea -  Possibly Egyptian: NO

Egyptian #15 (May be Australian): "Yes...The Muslim brotherhood is linked to Jihad in theory and practice!!!...and I growing my beard in protest!!!"

Just One Question...

...prompted by this comment on a BBC story re. Egypt: "A coup supported by majority of citizens should be called a revolution."

When is a coup just a coup and when is it a revolution?

PS: I like what he says:

"When you elect fanatics, .... you have not advanced democracy. You have empowered people who are going to wind up subverting democracy. The important thing is to get people like that out of power, even if it takes a coup. The goal is to weaken political Islam, by nearly any means."

[---]

"Once elected, the Brotherhood subverted judicial review, cracked down on civil society, arrested opposition activists, perverted the constitution-writing process, concentrated power and made democratic deliberations impossible."

Will It Be Different...

...this time?

Only time will tell, of course, but I see some small inkling of hope in this video. Not only are Egyptians talking about democratic aspirations, but even the army has installed, on an interim basis, a civilian president (at about 4:45 in this CBC report):



The civilian happens to be the chairman of the Supreme Constitutional Court. So far, so good - I think..

I see this as one long march toward greater democracy in the world, stemming from Glastnos and Peristroika in the last days of the Soviet Union, the Solidarity movement in Poland, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the Iraq war right up to the Arab Spring and the Green movement in Iran. The world is a much smaller place than it was in the 1950s, and one of the driving forces behind all this change is the Internet. Technological innovation has always driven changes in social and political power, sometimes significant upheaval, in fact. Think, for example, of the impact of the invention of the printing press and what that did to the dominance of the Catholic church in Europe.

BTW, I like the comments under the Washington Post article (at "Supreme Constitutional Court" link):

"This is NOT a military coup, but a real revolution in which millions of Egyptians have participated against all odds, and we would not go back to our homes except after Morsi leaves.

We are the Egyptian people claiming back our country and we ask you to be on our side and not the side of a fascistic clan of fundamentalists who believe that the West are nothing but infidels.

We are people who love freedom, who hail from a civilization that believes in diversity of religions and races.

We are Egypt of the 7,000 years telling you: I revolted."

There is something very fundamental going on here. I keep reading references to ancient Egyptian civilization. I hesitate to say this, but perhaps what we are witnessing is not only the end of an Islamist government and a blow to Islamism, but a movement away from Islam itself. Even the WaPo article hints at that. The Muslim Brotherhood seems to be the target.